14x08 Discussion Post

[dorkilysoulless]

Not sure if this is welcome -- I'm a recent return to Dreamwidth via the Tumblpocalypse, and I couldn't find anything quite like this when I skimmed through the archives -- but I thought it might be cool if maybe there was a space to discuss eps each week together in the comments.

Anyway, if folks are up for it, here's one for tonight's ep! Comments should be presumed spoilery.

Comments

[lurea]

Sounds like a great idea!!

[cathyw]

we got past "that's okay, I wasn't using those feels anyways, this is fine" well into "yes, I was using that particular feel, hdu". it was so good.

[treefrogie84]

it was so good that it required multiple shots and ice cream!

[dorkilysoulless]

This. I haven't been in the bourbon in a while, and I still needed fortification, Devil's Cut style.

Also, thank goodness for dogs.

[treefrogie84]

so... general take aways per my meta group (in no particular order):
1) we're still not sure if the Empty goo is supposed to be that similar to the Leviathan goo. Or Venom.
2) s15: the search for spock
3) dabb and his forking mirrors, hello 2x21 and demon deals that last for 1 freaking year that we're supposed to forget to tell the kids about.

there was something else, but i don't remember what it is because... 2 shots of rum and a shot of bourbon. and that's as someone who didn't immediately fall madly in love with Jack.

[cathyw]

I went back to 2x01 and making an ill-advised deal to save your son... but then when you consider the parentified relationship between Dean and Sam we get an ill-advised deal to save your son in 2x21 too, don't we. Hmm.

[treefrogie84]

I'm getting a lot more dean and sam vibes than john and dean vibes-- the time component, the drinking yourself stupid sort of grief-- but it could very easily go either way.

They're both dumbasses in the face of grief.

[temetnosce]

I am pretty sure the back end of this season is going to kill me...

[treefrogie84]

you won't be the only one, for sure. It killed me back when it happened on buffy, and i'm a hell of a lot more invested in spn

[treefrogie84]

4) (2 days late) Is a fallen angel actually human? Canon is inconclusive: Anna was psychic and had memory bleed through; Cas refers to himself as human in 9.03, but only after everyone else involved has (Dean, Sam, random others, April).

[dorkilysoulless]

So I just posted my inaugural Seven Things post here on Dreamwidth, but dang. This episode is so much. So many callbacks and bringing back characters and threads with a history -- Lily got telegraphed, but Kelly and Naomi were surprises for me -- either offered some closure or continued stories/relationships. The lampshading/foreshadwing of Cas' deal in tandem with the Winchesters'/TFW's overall better choices, emotional intelligence, and using their words was masterful. Anubis being our first Pagan being that isn't automatically coded a villain.

I am genuinely coming to love Meredith Glynn.

[cathyw]

I liked that they referenced Osiris and kind of modified his judgment thing? I never really liked that episode in the first place, but I especially disliked that judgment was based on how guilty you felt rather than any objective standard - it would let a sociopath off scot-free while someone like me who feels guilty about things I had no responsibility for would be damned before the trial even got started. The lawful-neutral accountant works so much better...

Anubis also had a really cool office.

[li_izumi]

Anubis did have a cool office. I liked him a lot.

[treefrogie84]

yeah. Osiris kinda had me going... Have you ever met a woman in the US? 98% of us feel guilty for everything.

Lawful Neutral Anubis much much better.

[temetnosce]

I can't even tell you how happy I am to see your Seven Things over here. Thank you!

And yes, that moment where Cas said "No" to Naomi was just so cathartic. This episode was wonderful.

[dorkilysoulless]

Every time Cas says no to Naomi, we are blessed. So blessed.

[li_izumi]

I posted up my watch notes over on my site, but main take away: loved the episode, dear lord did it hit me in all the FEELS.

Mourning dads, return of Lily, Jack dying, Jack and Kelly meeting in Heaven, the Empty (sad she didn't try for Misha's ridiculous Northern Midatlantic oil rig accent), Cas's new deal for Jack's sake. So much feels.

I loved the callbacks to canon details that have been forgotten for ages (Kevin's translation of the angel tablet, and letting us know the translation is in odd code, and they can't read it, so they haven't used it since because it's not usable.)

I am totally in agreement on love for Meredith.

[dorkilysoulless]

YES. Kevin's notes were a wonderful addition, further clarifying some things about why they don't use some of the things we know they have.

[temetnosce]

LOVE your watch notes. Also you reminded me: Mary is gonna be really confused when she rushes back from wherever she went off to to hug her boys and finds Jack alive. I expect a "WHAT DID YOU DO?" from her as well, honestly.

[li_izumi]

I *REALLY* hope she's in next episode. (Or they make some reference to her being there/seeing them between episodes) Besides I really want to see that "What did you do??" from her also!

[temetnosce]

XD I love all the stuff like that, when they intentionally make her like Dean he balks, when they make her not like Dean he balks. It's all good. I love it no matter what.

[temetnosce]

So glad to see everyone posting their usual post episode posts here! (especially since I've banned myself from giving tumblr any unnecessary page clicks, they aren't deserved.)

Absolutely loved this episode. The potential they laid down was so good, and Meredith is also cowriting the 300th ep too, right? I'm delighted with that.

What also gave me joy was seeing how many female characters were on screen this week (and actually this season as a whole has been leaning that way I feel, and will be next week as well). With Lily, Kelly, Naomi and Duma in this week's ep I felt so very spoiled, especially since they were developing all of those characters in ways that wasn't just defined by some guy they're screwing (and okay a lot of Kelly's stuff revolved around her relationship with Jack, but her Heaven was literally her playing with her dog as a child, and that was such a beautiful surprise, I didn't see it coming.)

These actresses are some of my favorites, and they've been on a lot of the Van based shows I adore (Eureka, Smallville, Stargate etc.) Very refreshing to see them respected with proper content and dialogue, and I'm so happy about it.

Also Jack's Heaven was the cutest thing and it hurt my heart so much. That's all the boy wants, his fam hunting together in the Impala, except all the roadtrip hijinx and none of the death T_T Isn't that what we all want? Ugh. So good.

[li_izumi]

I'm really glad Naomi is still alive and kicking. While I did adore Metatron as a villain (i hated him, oh how i hated him!), I always felt Naomi would short-shifted and would have been a great recurring threat/antagonist/villain. I know right now she's more somewhat ally instead of antagonist, I just like her still being around and representing the Heaven side of things.

Jack's Heaven was so cute.

Gods. I want to rewatch the episode again already!

[temetnosce]

Right? I can't wait to watch this episode again either. Naomi was a great villain, actually. She did some of my favorite villainy trope things and just. Villains we love to hate cause how dare they hurt Cas definitely fit in that box, and I'd rather have Naomi be the villain every year than Lucifer, you know?

[li_izumi]

Oh agreed. I'm so very done with Lucifer. I'm hoping he's not really coming back like 14x07 suggested.

Naomi had so much potential for a long-lasting villain role. I love the part she did play in season 8, but I wanted more of her!

[dorkilysoulless]

I was thinking about this a bit this morning over breakfast, and how Naomi is absolutely one of those characters who are, from their own side, Definitely Not Evil(TM). She's got a distinct sense of order and duty, and what maintaining order entails.

I don't think that's changed as such in the interim, though I do think the power differential has shifted so much -- Heaven is no longer really in play in terms of influence, and that brings her much closer to Cas' level -- that she has to negotiate, and he's able to say "no" with a credible chance of being able to maintain that boundary.

She still makes me extremely uncomfortable, and trusting her is perpetually out of the question, but I love it when she shows up to do that thing where she's not wrong, but she's absolutely working from core beliefs that grind against the ones our heroes subscribe to.

[li_izumi]

I agree so much with this. And we saw this in S8 where she was THE antagonist and we didn't trust her, but she was right about Metatron being bad news. As you say, her core beliefs do grind against our heroes that trust her at all at that point was impossible. Now, with the way Heaven has lost power, she's lost power, she and Cas can interact with more even footing, which allows Cas (and us) to consider what she says on its own merits and not knee-jerk run the opposite because she's saying it. It really does bring forth such interesting interactions and story potential to have a strong character like her. I'm so glad she was brought back and is involved with the Heaven plot!

[alyndra]

Awesome, I love this discussion so far! I think the community you're looking for is episodic, and I did see kate mention getting it going again, so I'm sure she'd love to hear from you! ♥

[dorkilysoulless]

That looks like a personal journal, not a comm?

[alyndra]

D’oh! I meant episodic_supernatural, not-at-all-obviously!

[dorkilysoulless]

Aha!

It doesn't look like it's seen any traffic since about 2015, but it could be a good spot to resurrect some stuff!